Have you wondered what things you should consider when choosing a city or area to live? In this episode, we're joined by guest Eric McCabe who has put hundreds of hours of research into this topic and we'll walk through how to choose the criteria that can point you towards a place you'll be happy to settle down.
[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the More Sense Than Dollars podcast, where your host is Nick and Harry.
[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_03]: What's up listeners?
[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_03]: We have a really special one for you here today because we have a special guest with us.
[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_03]: If you don't know him, you ought to.
[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_03]: His name is Eric McCabe.
[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And he is joining us today to talk about cost of living in a lot of different senses of the word in terms of costs.
[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So, Nick, are you ready for this one?
[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Eric, are you ready for this one?
[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm ready.
[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Looking forward to having another guest episode.
[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Happy to have Eric here.
[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome, Eric.
[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for joining us.
[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And so, the reason we have Eric on board for this one is because he is somebody who has put
[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of thought and research and effort into cost of living.
[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And where somebody should be living, they ended up spoiler on Pittsburgh.
[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_03]: But a lot of criteria went into that decision.
[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And so we're going to walk through some of that today.
[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. We've talked a little bit about some of these topics before.
[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: If you listen to our earlier episodes and renting versus buying and all of that.
[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But that was more of a theoretical exercise.
[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Those are things you should do and things that most people will do when they're in that position.
[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is going to be the experience with someone that actually did that in the recent past.
[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of what that experience was like for them.
[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So, Eric, I think a good background context setting is,
[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: you're somebody who has lived in a lot of different places,
[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of different states, a lot of different cities.
[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Where are all the places you've lived over the years?
[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And that brought you to Pittsburgh eventually.
[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. So nice to be with you guys.
[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, I started out in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I spent many years there born and raised, great place to live.
[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And we can talk about what, in my mind, makes a great place to live more in just a minute.
[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But great place to live, great place to grow up.
[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I lived in China for a year actually during high-side.
[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: When then came back to the US and went to DC for college.
[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And then went up to Delaware for my first year of work.
[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And then went up to the New York area where I spent over a decade living in Manhattan.
[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But also in Jersey City.
[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And then eventually out in Mont Clare, New Jersey.
[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Sort of further out in the suburbs a bit.
[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And then most recently, if for the last just about two years,
[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I've lived in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. So this is a mix.
[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: He's been in major cities, smaller cities, Midwest,
[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Mid-Atlantic, Northeast.
[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_03]: So a lot of experience, I guess, that helps weigh some of these categories
[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_03]: that will go through in a bit. But yeah, do you feel like,
[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, a lot of people haven't lived in it.
[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's many varied areas by time they get to the point of settling down.
[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I think most people looking back to, you know,
[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the people I still know of from a graduating class in high school,
[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: most of them are just settled down where they're parent-settle down essentially.
[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I think the even kind of the scope of consideration
[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: is much wider for some people than others.
[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But do you think having those varied experiences had a like,
[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you had certain criteria that were just immediately obvious to you off the bat
[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: having had those experiences? Like how valuable is that when it came time to do
[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: a more deep dive?
[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do think it helped. But I don't want to put too much weight on it
[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: because I think at the end of the day, no matter kind of what experience you have coming into
[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_00]: where you are in life, it's never the wrong time to ask the question of,
[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: what do I want going forward? What do I value? What do I not value?
[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, what you know at that point in time can inform the decision you make for
[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: for your life going forward even if you haven't lived in 10 different places.
[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think I do think it helped. It helped me kind of rule out a couple of things
[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that I knew I didn't want which is super valuable.
[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But there are other ways to, I think, get that perspective as well,
[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of literally living in a place like Newcastle Delaware for a year,
[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: which was great by the way. I actually love the Newcastle.
[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Formative experience.
[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but you know, I didn't love the C so much and there were reasons why like one
[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: to humidity. So that made you know, humidity or rather avoiding humidity was kind of a thing
[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought about when it came time to think about a place to live intentionally.
[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_03]: That makes sense. It's, you sort of took from each place. I really like this about this place.
[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't like this about this place. And that helped inform some of your
[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_03]: or calling like criteria or categories that make up your
[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_03]: spreadsheet that ultimately helped you make your decision. So
[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_03]: getting into the spreadsheet we're talking about that we can just mention this spreadsheet
[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_03]: or what we love and we call the Pittsburgh manifesto. All of the research that went into deciding
[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_03]: ultimately landing on Pittsburgh as a city for Eric and Nadia to settle down.
[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_03]: What made you want to go through that much thought? And effort was it just to make yourself
[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_03]: feel comfortable with the decision you made or was it like a fact-finding mission to narrow down
[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_03]: the cities that could fit your criteria. Yeah, I think at the end of the day we had reached a
[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: point in our lives a few years ago where we had lived in New York for a while or New York
[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and we knew that we didn't want to stay in New York forever. We were going to move
[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: somewhere else but then it's like where do you move? It's a big country. How do you even decide that?
[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And we at the time both had a work arrangement where we could work remotely so it was kind of
[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: open-ended and you have to make a decision about how on earth do you choose? So it did become
[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: it wasn't a spreadsheet or right away. It started with Googling, you know, best places to live
[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: in the country. That type of thing, right? But then you started, you start to see the same
[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_00]: old or colorado super nice. Oh people are moving to Boseman. Oh people are moving to, you know,
[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_00]: ex-whising great city but then you're like well I wouldn't ever live in so it's such in such a place
[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: because you know it doesn't have this. Well it wasn't systemic. It was sort of felt like a kind of an
[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: arbitrary assessment and then that kind of naturally somehow led to let me start writing down,
[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, put some things out here to it and then we'll start pulling in data from different sources
[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: to build out a view on, you know how to all these top 200 metro areas across the US kind of
[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: stack up against each other when assessed against the criteria that were important to us with
[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: the waitings as well that were important to us. So almost like, you know, not relying
[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: clearly on Wikipedia but using it as a starting point and then using their sources to actually
[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: do a little deeper research because any of those hundreds of city rankings have their own
[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: pathologies and they're going to have some sort of waiting to those criteria. And at face value,
[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: those probably aren't going to align with an individual. You know it's going to be kind of a
[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: best fit for the biggest amount of people and that's nice for a online list that you want to
[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: get a lot of clicks on but it's not really the most practical tool for making your life altering
[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_03]: decision on. So you went and did it yourself, you made your own list and what was, so what was
[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: the, you started going through the development process there, you started with the, yeah, a Googling
[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_03]: and lists, how did your narrow down the tabs or criteria or categories that you eventually ended up on?
[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean it started, it started with just trying to figure out, you know, what even really
[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: matters because we pulled in a lot of data that's really easily accessible from the FBI,
[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Department of Labor like all these public sources on quality of life, safety, education systems,
[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: cost of living stuff. A lot of that's out there not necessarily on one place but it was pretty
[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: easy to pull that in and then it's like okay what's interesting about that actually is when you step back
[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you know almost any city in this entire country that has I would say you know at least half a million
[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: people are more of which there are many could be a great place to live. Yeah, it's like depending on
[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: the life that you want to build and it's basically that you want to live you can probably make a
[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: terrific life for yourself in any city in this country that has maybe even more than 200,000 people.
[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I say that and many cities smaller than that too but the reason I pick that number is because
[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: any city that big is going to have a lot of sub communities and kind of niche communities within
[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_00]: it so you know you may not be moving to a city where everyone thinks like you or you know is like
[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you that but that's fine because there's probably enough people in the place that you're going
[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: to move to build a life around if you will as long as it's a big enough place. So
[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: then you kind of have to move beyond sort of those standard metrics too. All right what are the
[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: things that are showstoppers for you? You know what's a total showstopper for you and that could
[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: be well I'm not going to live in any place where I can't afford a house or I'm not going to live in any
[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: place where for one for us we can't live in any place where we're not you know within 45 minutes of
[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: a top 50 airport because we have to be able to get in and out and that actually rule that a lot
[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: of otherwise very beautiful wonderful parts of this country. You know we also like I alluded
[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: to the humidity thing earlier you know we didn't want to live in a place where it was going to be
[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: really hot in humid so that kind of wiped out a big chunk of the country that is really nice especially
[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: during major chunks of the year but ultimately for some months of the year it's just really
[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: difficult at least for us to live in. So we were looking at places that didn't fail on some
[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: of our showstopper criteria and then within what was left that's when it became a little bit more
[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: of a qualitative assessment. So Pittsburgh actually you know we had no expectations that Pittsburgh
[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: was going to be on this list we had never even been to Pittsburgh until like three or four years ago
[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: first time we visited I think was 2021 and we came as tourists basically after kind of finding that
[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Pittsburgh was pretty high up on this list we had created and we said well let's go check it out
[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and that was the first of two trips that we made before we ultimately decided to move here.
[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So you went in as unbiased as possible in selecting a city of sort of whichever cities
[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_03]: bubble to the top that happened to meet all the criteria we have we're going to seriously consider
[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: seriously consider I think is the word right we didn't let the data decide the outcome wasn't like
[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: oh well you know we have to go there in the end as high as score so let's pack our bags but
[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I do think that it allowed us to get from you know 200 metro areas or whatever down to like five
[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and then within that top five game more of a qualitative assessment. I think that speaks
[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: well we've talked about a lot here we're like personal finance is personal we're not we're not robots
[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that ingest data numbers and spit out a result like I think that's a really good example of how to
[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: be still subjective but utilize data driven decision making where you know at that top
[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: that top echelon of cities any one of those probably going to be fine any one of the other
[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: top four on your list that you're considering you probably would be very happy at right now
[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but they're still you know hard to make a wrong decision at that point but you're still
[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: giving a room for your personal you know preface two things up yeah push that start over the edge
[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah yeah so what were uh Eric some of the things that you could you mentioned humidity airport
[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03]: what were some of the other things that became non-negotiables for you or things that narrowed down
[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: cities the ones that eliminated the most yeah I think I think some of the more interesting
[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: variables were you know we we were really looking for places that had a big university presence
[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: because having a university in a lot of university you know age people students is a proxy for
[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of other things that we valued like having good amenities having you know you know
[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you're a cultural scene so so universities was sort of a fun one to pull in I think we also
[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: we tried to look ahead into the future you know because it's because the thought behind this move is
[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: we're moving to a place where we plan to stay here for basically the rest of our lives and then at that
[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: point you know you're investing your your money but also your time in that place you're
[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: really doubling down and building out physically but also a community etc so it's like you kind of
[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: want to move to a place where you think you know you're going to want to continue to live in
[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: 23 or 15 years and I like I'll just make a call one place out you know I had a good friend
[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_00]: who moved to Phoenix right when he loves it if Phoenix is wonderful he lives in a beautiful
[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: high rise in new building whatever but it's like they're running out of water right so what I
[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: move it what I live in Phoenix in 2024 yeah like I could live in Phoenix now but could I live
[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it could I could I live in Phoenix in 50 years maybe right I'd say I'd say between the heat the
[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: water and who knows what's not guaranteed yes not as guaranteed so trying to make the prediction
[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: of who's going to look pretty who's going to have a next a good next 50 years that was part of
[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: fun you know really now right put a place like Pittsburgh is is one of the few it's in one of the
[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: regions that you know the EPA and other groups have said as the climate continues to evolve and change
[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and place certain places get hotter and weather etc and get more extreme from a weather perspective
[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: certain regions are going to do better than others here in this country and and the great lakes
[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_00]: region is one of those regions that's expected to do better than others and that doesn't mean you
[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: have to move to Pittsburgh there's still plenty of options but it's so it's sort of future
[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: proofing to this day you can't your your your climate experience and also you know Pittsburgh
[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of unique in the sense that like a lot of other uh rust belt cities it's had a pretty
[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: tough prior 50 years but it's actually weathered at that storm better than most it's a super
[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: vibrant city it's out of pressure but it also still has a lot of runway it has a lot of room to
[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: grow the population had been falling for the last 50 years and really only just bought them now
[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: one or two years ago and now they're sort of an opportunity to rebound so you know it's trying
[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: to predict again what place might have a really good next 20 30 50 years that was part of the
[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: calculus too. I was all good once the consider. Did you ever have any and was making me think
[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: of think this question is the humidity right here you brought up and I'll ask the question and
[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe give an example from my life and then interested in your thoughts but did you ever have
[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: one of these criteria that you thought was a deal breaker and then you found some place that maybe
[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: scored so highly in a different area than you started. Yeah thinking like you know what
[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: 99% of the time that would be an absolute just no go for me but this place has something else that I
[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: like so much or that I think I can only get there I'm willing to overlook this um and so that
[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: is a question I'm thinking about this because we all went to school in DC and when I started my college
[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: search that was one of the things for me I wanted to go somewhere cooler. I didn't like new England
[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: summers, the heat, the humidity I wanted somewhere that was more temperate that was not DC but you
[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: as that search continued in my interests developed I you know really wanted to have like access to
[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: politics and internships related to that and that would I wanted to win international studies.
[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That was the whole thing and DC was tough to beat for politics and still is probably will always be
[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: if that's what you're interested in and so I ended up disregarding kind of what was one of my
[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: initial primary factors because of like a very unique factor like that. Yeah I mean I think I made
[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: similar straight off moving to New York making a calculated decision if you will to move to a place where
[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I would probably earn more money in New York than anywhere else in the country doing what I was doing
[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: but I knew I didn't want to live forever so it was sort of willing to trade off all sorts of
[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: other quality of life experiences you know New York is great in many many ways and I still love it and
[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you know I love going back but like for as a place to live it wasn't for me and I knew that even
[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: going in but I was willing to put up with that because of the benefits but that was temporary I think
[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: when you look at you know it not everyone has or should have a 50 year time frame on this stuff
[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: but if you are looking at a place with sort of the rest of your life in mind then the things
[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that you're really to trade off for sort of you know make a sacrifice around it becomes a pretty
[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_00]: short list because I kind of do want to find a place that checks all of your important boxes.
[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah and do you want to spend the next five decades kind of second guessing like I mean maybe
[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: it would have been better without summer cooler or summer not hot or summer cheaper.
[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah exactly and they're you're always going to second guess but that's the you know that's
[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: at a certain point certainly through this type of exercise you do kind of come to that
[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: phase where like you know there's there's a lot of good options there's no correct answer here
[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: like I've ruled out some wrong answers but within what's left these are all pretty good options
[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah you were saying so then you just have to pick one and go for it and not really
[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you know it's not a perfect place right Pittsburgh's not perfect by any stretch and
[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: some of that by the way is doing your research on what are you going to like about the place but
[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: also what are you not going to like so that you're setting your expectations the right way
[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: right but you know once you're in it it's like look this place isn't perfect but nowhere is perfect
[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm kind of okay with the trade-offs I have to make here because like when an eyes wide open
[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I will say two years in you know it's still too early to say right I need to wait at least 50
[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: years to know the fact that totally validate the decision but the pros are out when the cons
[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: so far it's played out sort of I would say as expected which is to say good right because I kind
[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: of thought it would be good and we we expected we'd have a certain type of life here and so far
[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what we've been able to have yeah I think there's definitely especially with the amount of
[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: information that everyone has access to these days there's and that like the phomo is a part of
[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it but I find not just about where to live for the rest of your life but minute mundane
[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: minuscule things people almost agonize over decisions because something else might be like one
[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and a half percent better and maybe got ranked first on this other list and it was you know
[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: or maybe something else got ranked first something you picked was third and people get frozen
[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: about trying to make the ultimate decision or that they're really the perfect decision
[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: where like you're saying there's really not a perfect one right like you you need to do the
[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: work to make sure that all the options you have left are good but from that point it's
[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't be frozen by in decision trying to pick the objective top choice so Eric for a
[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_03]: the place to start is what are your non negotiables right what are what are the things that
[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_03]: will now down probably the most number of cities the fastest is that where you'd recommend
[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_00]: somebody start I think that that's important to start or with it well you know and I
[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I would just frame in a sort of what's really important to you right you and and what's your time
[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: frame as well because look if you're just looking to move somewhere to have a new chapter to your life
[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_00]: but you don't plan to be there forever then I think that probably just is the most important
[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah and then you know it's a different perspective right so but if you're looking for a place
[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: like we were to live for the rest of your life then it's like well what really is important to
[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: have and what's important to make sure we don't have we don't want and so that yeah that will frame
[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: up kind of your thoughts and then you know with with data such a funny thing because you can always
[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: find data somewhere to kind of support any any perspective and that's why I think it is important to
[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of go into this sort of exercise without a lot of preconceived notions because like again
[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Pittsburgh wasn't even on the what was it even on the right or had never even been there in
[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: our lives neither might my wife or I had ever visited and driven by it a few times but never actually
[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of stopped off so it was it was the data kind of pointing out like this is kind of an interesting
[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: place on paper and then and then going in and being like okay actually you know has really good
[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: amenities for a city of its size because there used to be a bunch of really rich people here who kind of
[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_00]: funded a bunch of really world class amenities into perpetuity there's way more college students here
[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: than I realized like almost a hundred thousand college students which is kind of crazy and
[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's the only big city around for a couple of hours so it's got anchor institutions in
[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: healthcare and education that are funded by the government and aren't really going anywhere so
[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: unlike a lot of other rust belt cities which you know when they lost their major employer they kind
[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: of went into major decline Pittsburgh is more insulated from that so all of that kind of came
[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: later but it started with just even finding Pittsburgh on the final list of like top 10 and then
[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_03]: starting to dig into the qualitative from there oh I'm getting sold on Pittsburgh I think I'm leaving
[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: New York now I don't know if I go so far but I was gonna say definitely credit to you and I think
[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: you know the importance of keeping that open mind because when you I remember you and Nadia shared
[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: your shortlist with me kind of places you were what were the yeah what we're the other ones besides
[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Pittsburgh that so the criteria yeah it was a top five were Pittsburgh was on the list right
[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Metro Minneapolis which is a metro area and I draw the distinction between an urban city
[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and the metro areas surrounding it because again you can make it wonderful life in a suburb right
[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: on the periphery of some big downtown area Metro Detroit as well um de moign but that was
[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00]: you know you also have to ask questions like okay a place might be perfect but if nobody I know
[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: lives within five days of the place right and it's gonna be really difficult to see people in my life
[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: if I live there then maybe it's not so perfect after all so it's a loin was sort of on there for that reason
[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I mentioned Metro Detroit and then Boston was the only sort of non Midwest city we love
[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: New England northeast on paper right but cost living then becomes a thing and you're thinking a
[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: little bit about the next 50 years question and New England just kind of started and you know
[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Boston's the only major city realistically within sort of all of New England so if you want to
[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: fly in and out a lot which we fly fair now for work and for for life you need that airport proximity
[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: so long way of saying Boston was there but it didn't really hurdle compared to some of those other
[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_03]: options in terms of the final five yeah back to your point Nick about um said it it helped
[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: oh yeah I was gonna say you know credit to having the upper mind in this because when you're originally
[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: sure that list and that like Pittsburgh stood out to me as well it's kind of like like really like
[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Pittsburgh and even when you like had decided you were gonna move there I was still like that I mean
[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: seems wild you know I just wasn't something I'd really seriously thought of or definitely had some
[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: preconceived or had some biases about and then you know visited you guys their twice since you've moved and
[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: really you know it opened my eyes somewhat and how strong some of the biases I hold are in that like
[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I really loved Pittsburgh and then I've no wanting to get back and everything you had sort of laid out
[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: in your research I was like I you know don't have a comprehensive knowledge of the city I
[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: only spent maybe you know less than a week cumulative over there in the last couple of years in these two
[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: visits but could see how some of that research you had put together was like a parent in action like
[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: being there and kind of just change kind of how I thought or I think I will think about some of
[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: these decisions I have coming up in that they're the importance and being open to surprises like that
[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_03]: those yeah Eric it was like you go in with an open mind you let the data guide your decision
[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_03]: or guide you towards a short list and then let your gut come in at the end right and pick
[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_03]: from that short list and you know whichever way your gut leans that at least you met the
[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_03]: the logical or yeah the logical rational criteria is that the emotional piece
[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_03]: is it's okay you're not making it totally like rash decision
[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: all right yeah that's right and you know we didn't buy a house the day we moved to Pittsburgh right
[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_00]: we actually just bought a house pretty recently but a graduation you just thank you yeah it's
[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: exciting because we're sort of you know you move to again a metro area but then you have to find
[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: almost your place within the metro area which becomes its own mini search but at least at that point
[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you illuminated a lot of the country so anyways you know we came with a feeling of we're testing
[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: this out we have conviction but we don't really know we've never lived here before we got to test it out
[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: so you know there's ways to sort of step your way into this but you know not to downplay
[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: because moving is a lot of work for those of us that have done it it's not it's not
[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: one or rather than as soon as you do it yeah no exactly and I think that like if you're going to
[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_00]: make a move any type of move for any reason it certainly is good that it'd be a well-researched thing
[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: but it also in this you know I saw some data from some government source recently that said
[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that the the percentage of people of young people that move outside of the county in which they were born
[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: has like never been lower so basically nobody's leaving their home and over simplifying a little bit
[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: but the person on a percentage basis it has never been lower since they started recording this particular
[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: metro which speaks to a lot of things including just again how expensive it is to move away from your
[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: family how difficult that is and whatnot but you know the payoff that you can get well certainly
[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: from like a salary perspective to moving for work and pursuing opportunities is it's pretty
[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: legitimate depending on what career you're in and what line of work you're in so you know that's one
[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: reason to move but then again maybe you do that for ten years like I did and you sort of say okay
[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: now I'm thinking of something else and then you're looking for more of that quality of life
[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: reason to move and trying to balance your your career with all of the other things that you care about
[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_03]: other than just your work interesting yeah I guess throughout your life like maximizing salary is not
[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_03]: the most important thing at a certain point and so then you don't need to be in a New York City
[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_03]: to get the quality of life you want yeah that's interesting Eric that was an excellent point
[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_03]: this is where we would put an ad read if we had one that's gonna be it for this episode and we will pick
[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_03]: this up I know it's a cliffhanger we will pick this episode up in a part two so stay tuned for that one
[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_03]: we've got another half of this interview with Eric coming up so stay tuned for the next one thanks everybody
[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02]: you've been listening to the more sense than dollars podcast